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Host： For the rest of the hour， we’re going to talk about 1）meteorites. They are more than just 2）a chunk of rock. They can be a time 3）capsule， or ancient secrets of our solar system may be locked up in its core. And it turns out that one of the largest meteorite collections， the largest one， the largest collection held by any university is just up the road from us in Tempe. And joining us now to talk about the collection is Meenakshi Wadhwa.
She is director of the Center for Meteorite Studies and a professor in the School of Earth and Space Exploration at ASU. Let’s talk about your collection. How did you get a collection？
Meenakshi Wadhwa： So， this is actually part of a great story too. There’s a very famous collector， an Arizonan， Harvey Nininger， who had this wonderful collection. He is probably the person who I would say was responsible for bringing up the science of meteorites to the United States. And he had this great passion for meteorites. Actually， in the natural world in general but a great passion for collecting these space rocks. And he did this in the 1930s and ’40s， and he had this wonderful collection， probably the best in the world. And towards the late 1950s， he actually sold—he was basically deciding what to do with it and wanted it to have a life beyond his， at some point， and he sold half of it to the British Museum.
Host： Wow.
Wadhwa： And so Arizona State， actually， very forward looking at the time—this was an era when， you know， 4）Sputnik happened， 1959， and they were thinking， well， you know， space， this is the new frontier. This is where we ought to go. And they had the vision to actually buy the rest of his collection， and that’s where the core of our collection comes from.
Host： Is there a great black market in meteorites？
Wadhwa： Oh， gosh. There is a great community of collectors and people that like to collect and buy meteorites.
Host： Is that a 5）euphemism for a black market？
Wadhwa： Well， it’s an interesting question. I’m sure there are people that collect meteorites in places that aren’t—where the laws don’t actually allow them to collect these things. I’m sure that happens. But basically， we， you know， we as a community of scientists would not have some of the most interesting samples to study if there was not a community of people interested in collecting these things in places that are hard to get to and so...
Host： Is the big catch now the one that blew up over Russia？ Are people looking for pieces？ Have they found the pieces？ Wadhwa： Yes， they have， actually. Within hours of the news， there were people 6）converging on Chelyabinsk.
Host： So what do you have to do to get one of those pieces？
Wadhwa： Well， I’ve actually—we don’t have a piece of that meteorite in our collection yet...
Host： Would do they go to auction， something like that...？
Wadhwa： Possibly.
Host： Can you tell immediately by looking at a rock that it’s a meteorite or not？
Wadhwa： Most times， but I actually…
Host： Really？
Wadhwa： Yeah， I actually just spent two months in 7）Antarctica—two months ago， actually. I came back from there. And we were collecting meteorites out on the ice.
主持人：在接下来的时间里，我们来谈谈陨石。它们不仅仅是一块块石头，而且是时间穿梭机，我们太阳系的古老秘密或许就隐藏在其核心里。有结果显示最大的陨石收藏之一、最大的陨石收藏品由坦培某间大学所拥有，该大学从我们这里沿路过去就是。现在欢迎米内克什·瓦德瓦加入到我们当中，谈谈有关该收藏的话题。
她是陨石研究中心的主管，也是美国亚利桑那州立大学地球与空间探索学院的教授。我们来谈谈你们的收藏吧，你们是怎样得到收藏品的？
米内克什·瓦德瓦：好的，这确实是个了不起的故事。有位很出名的收藏家，亚利桑那州的哈维·尼宁格，他曾是这些珍贵收藏品的主人。我可以断定他是把美国陨石科学提到高点的一人，他对陨石充满热情。事实上，他不仅热衷于收集这些太空石头，他对整个自然科学都充满热情。他在20世纪三四十年代收集陨石，并拥有了这些珍贵的收藏品，可能也是世界上最好的陨石。到了20世纪50年代末，他基本上决定了如何处置这些收藏品，他要卖掉收藏品，某种程度上，他想改善自己的生活，于是他把一半陨石卖给了英国博物馆。
主持人：哇。
瓦德瓦：而亚利桑那州那时确实很有远见，你知道，那是人造地球卫星“伴侣号”发射后的1959年，正是划时代的时期，他们认为太空是个新的领域。这是我们应该探索的领域，于是极有远见地买下了剩余的陨石，这就是我们的收藏品的主要来源。
主持人：陨石买卖是不是有很大的黑市存在？
瓦德瓦：噢，我的天。是有一个很大的收藏家社团，那里的人们喜欢收藏和购买陨石。
主持人：那是对黑市的委婉说法吗？瓦德瓦：呃，那是个有趣的问题。我相信有人在法律不允许的地方收集陨石，我相信有那样的事情发生。但是基本上，如果没有一群人有兴趣到达难以涉足的地方去收集这些东西，作为科学家的我们就不会有这些最让人感兴趣的样品去研究，所以……
主持人：那个在俄罗斯爆炸的陨石是不是目前最大的收获？人们都在寻找碎石吗？他们找到碎石了吗？
瓦德瓦：是的，他们确实找到了。新闻一播出几个小时内，人们就聚集在俄罗斯的车里雅宾斯克州那里。
主持人：那么你们要做些什么去获得一块陨石？
瓦德瓦：呃，事实上我，我们的收藏里还没得到一块那次的陨石……
主持人：他们会进行拍卖，或类似的活动吗？
瓦德瓦：有可能。
主持人：看到一块石头，你能否立刻判断那是不是一块陨石？
瓦德瓦：大多数时候能，但我实际上……
主持人：真的？
瓦德瓦：是的，事实上，就在两个月前我花了两个月的时间呆在南极洲，我才从那里回来，我们在冰天雪地里收集陨石。
Host： They’re just sitting out there， aren’t they？
Wadhwa： They’re sitting out there. In some places there’s nothing but ice and the only dark rock that you see， that’s a meteorite. But in other places， you actually go to these 8）moraines where there’s lots of 9）terrestrial rocks mixed in. A lot of them look dark and heavy， and it takes your eye a little bit to get trained to seeing what meteorites look like. But when you’re trained—when you’re trained to look for these things， you can actually identify them fairly regularly and reliably.
Host： And which one is your most favorite of all in the collection？ Wadhwa： Yes. Actually， I will say my favorite one right now is this Mars meteorite， which we got just in the last couple of months. It’s one that fell in Morocco last year， and it is only one of five known Martian meteorite falls. And so it’s the most recent one that’s happened. There’s not been one in 50 years. And so， you know， if you want to understand something about Mars as a planet and you want to find something fresh and that’s not been sitting around on Earth for very long and not 10）contaminated by terrestrial things， this is the rock to look at.
Host： How does that—how does it get from Mars to here？
Wadhwa： We heard earlier in the show， there’s probably large impacts that are hitting Mars even today， and certainly in the past. And so there was a large impact on Mars sometime in the past and it 11）ejected these pieces from Mars and eventually it’s made its way to the Earth.
Host： Could there be pieces from other planets？
Wadhwa： Absolutely. So there’s pieces of the moon that are meteorites that have landed on the Earth. Theoretical calculations show that， in fact， there could be 12）swapping of material between planets quite readily. And so absolutely， there’s probably Earth meteorites on the moon， for example. And that’s kind of a fascinating story in itself. You might actually find ancient Earth rocks somewhere lying around on the moon.
Host： Well， but if a meteorite comes in and it gets—it’s sitting here for a while， it gets contaminated by everything that’s on Earth， what can you then learn from it about where it came from， or why is it important to look at it？
主持人：陨石就落在那里，是吗？瓦德瓦：就落在那里。有些地方什么都没有，只有冰雪，你看到的唯一的黑石头就是陨石。但是有些地方，你会看到这些冰碛混杂了很多陆地的石头，很多石头看起来都是黑色和沉重的，你要费点眼力，训练自己的眼睛去判断哪些是陨石。当你训练过去寻找这些东西，你确实能有规律并可靠地辨别出来。
主持人：在所有收藏品中你最喜欢的是哪一件？
瓦德瓦：是啊，事实上，目前我最喜欢的是这块火星陨石，我们在几个月前得到的。那是去年落在摩洛哥的，也是已知的五块火星陨石中的一块，
而且是离现在最近的一块，五十年才发生一次呀。所以，你知道，如果你想了解火星这个星球，如果你想找到落在地球没多久、还没被陆地污染的新鲜陨石，非这块石头莫属。
主持人：陨石是怎样从火星到达这里的？
瓦德瓦：我们之前听过一个节目提到，当然在过去，甚至今天火星都有可能受到极大的撞击。所以过去某个时候火星受到极大撞击，迸射出这些碎石，最后落到地球上。
主持人：有些石头会是从别的星球来的吗？
瓦德瓦：绝对是。还有从月球来的陨石落到地球上。理论结果表明，事实上，星球之间的物品交换是很容易的，所以，举个例子，月球上肯定也有地球的陨石。陨石本身就是个令人着迷的故事，你确实会发现地球古老的石头就躺在月球的某处。
主持人：嗯，但是如果有块陨石落下来一段时间，被地球上的物品污染过，你怎么判断它来自哪里，找到这样一块陨石为什么那么重要？
Wadhwa： Yes. So some things do get 13）compromised when they’ve been sitting around on the Earth， but there are other mineral components as well as， in some cases， organic materials in some of these meteorites that you can look at， that you can differentiate from Earth materials. So even though there are contaminations or contaminants that can affect the meteorite， there is definitely a lot of information that you can learn about these. In fact， you know， a lot of times people wonder， you know， 14）meteoritics is such a small sort of 15）niche of very specialized science. But everything that we understand about the beginnings of the Earth， everything that we understand about beginnings of the solar system， what we’re made of， what the planet’s made of， the age of the Earth， all of that comes from studying meteorites. And， you know， we can learn a lot from that.
Host： Would that be a good topic for a novel， do you think？
Wadhwa： Absolutely. There are actually quite a few novels that have been written about meteorite impacts and， you know， 16）microbes being carried over here from other places. And yes， there are science fiction books that I’ve certainly read very 17）avidly about that， but， yes...
Host： So what is the 18）holy grail of a meteorite collector？ What do you really wish for some day？
Wadhwa： Oh， boy， a piece of Mercury maybe. There was actually at this last Lunar and Planetary Science Conference， there was a talk about a possible Mercurian meteorite. Host： Would you know it if you found it？
Wadhwa： That’s the good question. I mean in the case of the Mars meteorites and the moon meteorites， there’s actually—we have pieces of evidence from other sciences that can relate to that. And we know that these things are fairly solid. But in the case of a Mercurian meteorite， that would be a little bit harder to do， but it wouldn’t be impossible. Hopefully there might be a sample returned sometime in the future.
瓦德瓦：没错，所以当陨石已经落到地球（一段时间），我们就要采取折中的办法，在某些情况下，可以通过找到陨石的其他矿物成分和有机物质来跟地球的物质区分开。
所以尽管会有污染或污染物影响到陨石，一定会有很多信息帮你认识到它们。事实上，你知道，很多时候有人会疑惑，陨星学只是特殊科学的一个小领域。但是我们要了解地球的一切起源，了解太阳系的一切起源、人类的起源、星球的起源、地球的年龄，所有这些都是来自对陨石的研究。所以你知道，我们可以从中学到很多。
主持人：你认为那是写小说的好题材吗？
瓦德瓦：绝对是的。你知道，确实已经有不少关于陨石碰撞的小说，还有来自其他星球的微生物入侵地球。是的，我当然曾如饥似渴地从科幻小说中读过相关的故事，但是，没错……主持人：那么什么东西是陨石收藏者梦寐以求的？你希望某天能真正得到什么？
瓦德瓦：哦，我的天，或许是一块水星陨石吧。确实就在上次的月球与行星科学研讨会上，对水星陨石的可能性进行过讨论。
主持人：你看到了会知道是水星陨石吗？
瓦德瓦：这是个很好的问题。我的意思是对于火星和月球陨石的情况，我们确实从其他科学中找到一些相关的资料，而且我们知道这些陨石都是固体。但是对于水星陨石的情况，是会有点难度，但也不是没可能。希望有朝一日会得到一个样品。
She is director of the Center for Meteorite Studies and a professor in the School of Earth and Space Exploration at ASU. Let’s talk about your collection. How did you get a collection？
Meenakshi Wadhwa： So， this is actually part of a great story too. There’s a very famous collector， an Arizonan， Harvey Nininger， who had this wonderful collection. He is probably the person who I would say was responsible for bringing up the science of meteorites to the United States. And he had this great passion for meteorites. Actually， in the natural world in general but a great passion for collecting these space rocks. And he did this in the 1930s and ’40s， and he had this wonderful collection， probably the best in the world. And towards the late 1950s， he actually sold—he was basically deciding what to do with it and wanted it to have a life beyond his， at some point， and he sold half of it to the British Museum.
Host： Wow.
Wadhwa： And so Arizona State， actually， very forward looking at the time—this was an era when， you know， 4）Sputnik happened， 1959， and they were thinking， well， you know， space， this is the new frontier. This is where we ought to go. And they had the vision to actually buy the rest of his collection， and that’s where the core of our collection comes from.
Host： Is there a great black market in meteorites？
Wadhwa： Oh， gosh. There is a great community of collectors and people that like to collect and buy meteorites.
Host： Is that a 5）euphemism for a black market？
Wadhwa： Well， it’s an interesting question. I’m sure there are people that collect meteorites in places that aren’t—where the laws don’t actually allow them to collect these things. I’m sure that happens. But basically， we， you know， we as a community of scientists would not have some of the most interesting samples to study if there was not a community of people interested in collecting these things in places that are hard to get to and so...
Host： Is the big catch now the one that blew up over Russia？ Are people looking for pieces？ Have they found the pieces？ Wadhwa： Yes， they have， actually. Within hours of the news， there were people 6）converging on Chelyabinsk.
Host： So what do you have to do to get one of those pieces？
Wadhwa： Well， I’ve actually—we don’t have a piece of that meteorite in our collection yet...
Host： Would do they go to auction， something like that...？
Wadhwa： Possibly.
Host： Can you tell immediately by looking at a rock that it’s a meteorite or not？
Wadhwa： Most times， but I actually…
Host： Really？
Wadhwa： Yeah， I actually just spent two months in 7）Antarctica—two months ago， actually. I came back from there. And we were collecting meteorites out on the ice.
主持人：在接下来的时间里，我们来谈谈陨石。它们不仅仅是一块块石头，而且是时间穿梭机，我们太阳系的古老秘密或许就隐藏在其核心里。有结果显示最大的陨石收藏之一、最大的陨石收藏品由坦培某间大学所拥有，该大学从我们这里沿路过去就是。现在欢迎米内克什·瓦德瓦加入到我们当中，谈谈有关该收藏的话题。
她是陨石研究中心的主管，也是美国亚利桑那州立大学地球与空间探索学院的教授。我们来谈谈你们的收藏吧，你们是怎样得到收藏品的？
米内克什·瓦德瓦：好的，这确实是个了不起的故事。有位很出名的收藏家，亚利桑那州的哈维·尼宁格，他曾是这些珍贵收藏品的主人。我可以断定他是把美国陨石科学提到高点的一人，他对陨石充满热情。事实上，他不仅热衷于收集这些太空石头，他对整个自然科学都充满热情。他在20世纪三四十年代收集陨石，并拥有了这些珍贵的收藏品，可能也是世界上最好的陨石。到了20世纪50年代末，他基本上决定了如何处置这些收藏品，他要卖掉收藏品，某种程度上，他想改善自己的生活，于是他把一半陨石卖给了英国博物馆。
主持人：哇。
瓦德瓦：而亚利桑那州那时确实很有远见，你知道，那是人造地球卫星“伴侣号”发射后的1959年，正是划时代的时期，他们认为太空是个新的领域。这是我们应该探索的领域，于是极有远见地买下了剩余的陨石，这就是我们的收藏品的主要来源。
主持人：陨石买卖是不是有很大的黑市存在？
瓦德瓦：噢，我的天。是有一个很大的收藏家社团，那里的人们喜欢收藏和购买陨石。
主持人：那是对黑市的委婉说法吗？瓦德瓦：呃，那是个有趣的问题。我相信有人在法律不允许的地方收集陨石，我相信有那样的事情发生。但是基本上，如果没有一群人有兴趣到达难以涉足的地方去收集这些东西，作为科学家的我们就不会有这些最让人感兴趣的样品去研究，所以……
主持人：那个在俄罗斯爆炸的陨石是不是目前最大的收获？人们都在寻找碎石吗？他们找到碎石了吗？
瓦德瓦：是的，他们确实找到了。新闻一播出几个小时内，人们就聚集在俄罗斯的车里雅宾斯克州那里。
主持人：那么你们要做些什么去获得一块陨石？
瓦德瓦：呃，事实上我，我们的收藏里还没得到一块那次的陨石……
主持人：他们会进行拍卖，或类似的活动吗？
瓦德瓦：有可能。
主持人：看到一块石头，你能否立刻判断那是不是一块陨石？
瓦德瓦：大多数时候能，但我实际上……
主持人：真的？
瓦德瓦：是的，事实上，就在两个月前我花了两个月的时间呆在南极洲，我才从那里回来，我们在冰天雪地里收集陨石。
Host： They’re just sitting out there， aren’t they？
Wadhwa： They’re sitting out there. In some places there’s nothing but ice and the only dark rock that you see， that’s a meteorite. But in other places， you actually go to these 8）moraines where there’s lots of 9）terrestrial rocks mixed in. A lot of them look dark and heavy， and it takes your eye a little bit to get trained to seeing what meteorites look like. But when you’re trained—when you’re trained to look for these things， you can actually identify them fairly regularly and reliably.
Host： And which one is your most favorite of all in the collection？ Wadhwa： Yes. Actually， I will say my favorite one right now is this Mars meteorite， which we got just in the last couple of months. It’s one that fell in Morocco last year， and it is only one of five known Martian meteorite falls. And so it’s the most recent one that’s happened. There’s not been one in 50 years. And so， you know， if you want to understand something about Mars as a planet and you want to find something fresh and that’s not been sitting around on Earth for very long and not 10）contaminated by terrestrial things， this is the rock to look at.
Host： How does that—how does it get from Mars to here？
Wadhwa： We heard earlier in the show， there’s probably large impacts that are hitting Mars even today， and certainly in the past. And so there was a large impact on Mars sometime in the past and it 11）ejected these pieces from Mars and eventually it’s made its way to the Earth.
Host： Could there be pieces from other planets？
Wadhwa： Absolutely. So there’s pieces of the moon that are meteorites that have landed on the Earth. Theoretical calculations show that， in fact， there could be 12）swapping of material between planets quite readily. And so absolutely， there’s probably Earth meteorites on the moon， for example. And that’s kind of a fascinating story in itself. You might actually find ancient Earth rocks somewhere lying around on the moon.
Host： Well， but if a meteorite comes in and it gets—it’s sitting here for a while， it gets contaminated by everything that’s on Earth， what can you then learn from it about where it came from， or why is it important to look at it？
主持人：陨石就落在那里，是吗？瓦德瓦：就落在那里。有些地方什么都没有，只有冰雪，你看到的唯一的黑石头就是陨石。但是有些地方，你会看到这些冰碛混杂了很多陆地的石头，很多石头看起来都是黑色和沉重的，你要费点眼力，训练自己的眼睛去判断哪些是陨石。当你训练过去寻找这些东西，你确实能有规律并可靠地辨别出来。
主持人：在所有收藏品中你最喜欢的是哪一件？
瓦德瓦：是啊，事实上，目前我最喜欢的是这块火星陨石，我们在几个月前得到的。那是去年落在摩洛哥的，也是已知的五块火星陨石中的一块，
而且是离现在最近的一块，五十年才发生一次呀。所以，你知道，如果你想了解火星这个星球，如果你想找到落在地球没多久、还没被陆地污染的新鲜陨石，非这块石头莫属。
主持人：陨石是怎样从火星到达这里的？
瓦德瓦：我们之前听过一个节目提到，当然在过去，甚至今天火星都有可能受到极大的撞击。所以过去某个时候火星受到极大撞击，迸射出这些碎石，最后落到地球上。
主持人：有些石头会是从别的星球来的吗？
瓦德瓦：绝对是。还有从月球来的陨石落到地球上。理论结果表明，事实上，星球之间的物品交换是很容易的，所以，举个例子，月球上肯定也有地球的陨石。陨石本身就是个令人着迷的故事，你确实会发现地球古老的石头就躺在月球的某处。
主持人：嗯，但是如果有块陨石落下来一段时间，被地球上的物品污染过，你怎么判断它来自哪里，找到这样一块陨石为什么那么重要？
Wadhwa： Yes. So some things do get 13）compromised when they’ve been sitting around on the Earth， but there are other mineral components as well as， in some cases， organic materials in some of these meteorites that you can look at， that you can differentiate from Earth materials. So even though there are contaminations or contaminants that can affect the meteorite， there is definitely a lot of information that you can learn about these. In fact， you know， a lot of times people wonder， you know， 14）meteoritics is such a small sort of 15）niche of very specialized science. But everything that we understand about the beginnings of the Earth， everything that we understand about beginnings of the solar system， what we’re made of， what the planet’s made of， the age of the Earth， all of that comes from studying meteorites. And， you know， we can learn a lot from that.
Host： Would that be a good topic for a novel， do you think？
Wadhwa： Absolutely. There are actually quite a few novels that have been written about meteorite impacts and， you know， 16）microbes being carried over here from other places. And yes， there are science fiction books that I’ve certainly read very 17）avidly about that， but， yes...
Host： So what is the 18）holy grail of a meteorite collector？ What do you really wish for some day？
Wadhwa： Oh， boy， a piece of Mercury maybe. There was actually at this last Lunar and Planetary Science Conference， there was a talk about a possible Mercurian meteorite. Host： Would you know it if you found it？
Wadhwa： That’s the good question. I mean in the case of the Mars meteorites and the moon meteorites， there’s actually—we have pieces of evidence from other sciences that can relate to that. And we know that these things are fairly solid. But in the case of a Mercurian meteorite， that would be a little bit harder to do， but it wouldn’t be impossible. Hopefully there might be a sample returned sometime in the future.
瓦德瓦：没错，所以当陨石已经落到地球（一段时间），我们就要采取折中的办法，在某些情况下，可以通过找到陨石的其他矿物成分和有机物质来跟地球的物质区分开。
所以尽管会有污染或污染物影响到陨石，一定会有很多信息帮你认识到它们。事实上，你知道，很多时候有人会疑惑，陨星学只是特殊科学的一个小领域。但是我们要了解地球的一切起源，了解太阳系的一切起源、人类的起源、星球的起源、地球的年龄，所有这些都是来自对陨石的研究。所以你知道，我们可以从中学到很多。
主持人：你认为那是写小说的好题材吗？
瓦德瓦：绝对是的。你知道，确实已经有不少关于陨石碰撞的小说，还有来自其他星球的微生物入侵地球。是的，我当然曾如饥似渴地从科幻小说中读过相关的故事，但是，没错……主持人：那么什么东西是陨石收藏者梦寐以求的？你希望某天能真正得到什么？
瓦德瓦：哦，我的天，或许是一块水星陨石吧。确实就在上次的月球与行星科学研讨会上，对水星陨石的可能性进行过讨论。
主持人：你看到了会知道是水星陨石吗？
瓦德瓦：这是个很好的问题。我的意思是对于火星和月球陨石的情况，我们确实从其他科学中找到一些相关的资料，而且我们知道这些陨石都是固体。但是对于水星陨石的情况，是会有点难度，但也不是没可能。希望有朝一日会得到一个样品。