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Y: Yang Rui, anchor of Dialogue
M: Prof. Colin Mackerras, Griffith University, Australia
C: Shaun Chang, writer and cultural critic
Y: Following the recent decision by the authorities of CCP to foster the cultural development of the second biggest economy,1 media debates flare up as to whether we are going to have another cultural revolution or rather cultural industry which will boost our domestic consumption and add to the soft power of China.2 Here the core issues are perhaps whether Chinese can rediscover their traditional values and accept universal values during the current social transformation and integration with the rest of the world.3 What do you think of the current campaign to reconstruct4 Chinese culture?
M: Well, I don’t see why it shouldn’t be the case. We live in a globalized age, that’s true. American values and American culture seem to me more dominant5 than they ought to be. I mean I don’t think they are as good as they pretend to be. I don’t see why China shouldn’t try and recreate its traditional culture, and use its traditional culture, and enjoy its traditional culture. It will not be exactly the same, and it can never be exactly the same. But I don’t see any problems with revising and adapting from other inspirations.
Y: What do you think is the most interesting topic concerning the issue of cultural development and soft power?
C: In some other countries like the UK and Australia,
when you talk about cultural industry and cultural policy, you are talking more about creative industries driven by city-based policies rather than central government-driven policies. It is always culturally creative industries. But here we are emphasizing more on traditional Chinese culture and values. This seems to be a more mainstream6 way of thinking. As for creative industry, we are talking more about thinking outside the box, individualism7 and individual expression. I hope there can be a better balance between the two. That way we can bring more content and more interesting and diversified cultural products.
Y: In the opening ceremony of the 2000 Sydney Olympics, a little young girl was overwhelmed by huge human waves which were formed by aboriginal8 people. The Australian government was divided as to whether the aboriginal people should be brought into more prosperous9 region or they should be encouraged to remain where they are in order to preserve their unique culture. How do you see the relations between preservation of a traditional culture and the creation of a new one?
M: I don’t see them of being mutually exclusive10. I think creativity is very hard to create by itself. But I think money is very important. It matters as far as China is concerned and it matters as far as everywhere is concerned. Great cultures begin mostly in cities, but that doesn’t mean you can’t have folk11 cultures, too. I mean you should have folk cultures; they usually rise without being persuaded by authorities or anybody like that. But I think when you earlier talked about China’s soft power, it seems to me that the soft power to some extent depends on hard power. I mean it depends on money, on a strong country. I, for one12 think China should develop its soft power.
Y: In Henan province a statue of Song Qingling which costs 800 million yuan was just erected. In Tianjin local authorities claimed that they would spend 5.1 billion yuan constructing a British style cultural zone. In Xi’an local authorities decided to spend 3.5 billion yuan to build a modern “silk road13.” Huge amount of money is being used to construct or reconstruct culture, and probably with the hopes of attracting more tourists and make more money. So I can hardly see the distinction here between hard power and soft power. It seems that cultural platforms are constructed to make money?
C: Yes. What we talk about here is not cultural industry, but is actually cultural economy. These examples you gave focus on cultural products, or hardware, instead of software by which I mean thinking and concepts. So they build a lot of theme parks that are named after cultural figures. That doesn’t really mean culture is there being constructed.
M: I think it’s very difficult to distinguish between these two things, hard power and soft power. When we look back at European traditional culture, you can see all kinds of money being spent on great statues. Prague is a wonderful city that has got wonderful statuary there,14 and it is a beautiful culture. And that costs money. And you can see the same in China. Now I’m not saying that you should be spending all this money. But I would hesitate15 to say that this is a bad thing to do, and even as far as tourism is concerned. Now tourists have a bit of a bad name, they often don’t know very much. You know, I recently went to see mu dan ting(The Peony Pavilion)16 in the Imperial Gallery. It is a very beautiful production really. It costs a lot of money to go, but I thought it was very beautifully done, and it was a very good way to restore those interesting traditional dramas. And if they want to use that for tourists to make money, I would say good luck to them if they’ve got something that’s really worth selling.
Y: Is it worthwhile to duplicate landmark places like Yuanmingyuan Gardens that was destroyed during the invasion by the European allies during the Opium War?17
C: I think that will be the second devastation18 to the Yuanmingyuan Gardens. It was all part of the history. I have to say that it is preserved the way it is. Maybe you could give it a bit of more protection and attention, but I don’t see the point of rebuilding a new park. And just by copying something from Beijing, other cities cannot build a culture with substance19 and creativity.
M: Again I am not sure about this. I think tourists like authenticity20 so they would be able to say to their friends “I’ve seen the real thing.”
Y: What do you think of the role of international cooperation in cultural development? For example, we have panda and kung fu, but it was Hollywood that came up with a huge blockbuster Kung Fu Panda.21
M: I think what’s important for China is to make sure that it does have its own cultural identity. And of course that’s the whole question, how do you create your own cultural identity, how do you make China creative? I mean it’s a bit creative now, but it’s not as creative as it could be. And I think something should be done to make it more creative. I think that’s a very big question, because culture does matter. How people like the entertainment, how people like the kind of values that they had, I think those things do matter. I think it’s important that we not only live in a globalized world but we also live in a diverse world. I think diversity matters very much. I really think it’s a great pity that the West especially the US seems to dominate the globalization process so much. I mean I think China has plenty to offer.
Y: If you look at weibo, you’ll see the preferences of the public. How do you look at the popularity of such figures like 凤姐 or 芙蓉姐姐?
C: I believe that Internet has totally changed today’s media landscape22. Audiences have more power. They can also use Internet to express their power collectively23. So they do not appreciate what the state media are giving them. They are looking for something more interesting. And they believe that by making controversial24 figures like you have just mentioned top over official figures like model heroes they can show what they want right now.
Y: You mean the audiences are fed up with stereotypical cultural image so they are eager to create their own rebellious characters to tell their own story.25
M: Yes. But those stories may not have substance to support them and are only skin deep26. And we end up with all those meaningless cultural products.
Y: Do you think we should learn from Hollywood to use traditional cultural figures to generate revenue27?
M: I personally am not very keen to just follow the Hollywood models. I think Hollywood has made great achievements but culturally you have other better examples than Hollywood.
Y: Do you think we can draw a lesson from the cultural protectionism of the French government?
C: Yes. But I think they have more independent and public figures trying to preserve that. You can’t just depend on the government to do that. You need more non-profit28 organizations to do that. In a civil society you can have more diversified cultural products instead of having only mainstream products.
M: I agree with that. But I also think what’s important about the French exemplar29 is to have both preservation and innovation. I think the French model has got a lot of going for it. France is quite innovative and it has wonderful cultures to preserve, too. China has wonderful cultures to preserve, too. And I don’t feel that pessimistic30 about the future of Chinese culture.
C: Another thing I want to mention is the access to culture. Now a lot of the public museums are free so the poor people can go there. But do those people even have time to visit the museums? I think we should start doing something from elementary schools. For example, in Taipei, each semester elementary school pupils will be taken to museums, theatres or concerts. And Taiwan’s famous dancing company will go to remote31 villages to perform for free. So I think it is also important to guarantee cultural access of the general public.
M: To be fair, that also happens in (the) mainland(of ) China, since I’ve seen it happen. About the availability32 of access, I think that’s a very important point. The Peony Pavilion that I mentioned earlier is marvelous33 to see. But it is so expensive that the students cannot afford.
Y: The authorities have issued policies to limit commercials during TV plays and have also ruled against vulgar and violent entertainment programs on TV.34 This has caused a lot of debate. How do you look at it?
M: I think it’s the old question of the balance between freedom and responsibility. I think that is true, but how you apply is of course very, very difficult. I think I would prefer on the side of freedom if I were in a lot of cases. But there’re quite a few cases that I wouldn’t do that. I think the extent to which things are controlled is a very, very big problem. I think it’s OK for the government to say let’s not be so commercial and so material and take control of the kind of freedom that can cause resentment35. ?
1. CCP: = Chinese Communist Party， 中国共产党；foster: 促进，培养。
2. flare up: 突然爆发；consumption: 消费。
3. transformation: 转变；integration: 融合。
4. reconstruct: 重建。
5. dominant: 统治的，占优势的。
6. mainstream:（思想或行为的）主流。
7. individualism: 个人主义。
8. aboriginal: 澳大利亚土著（居民）的。
9. prosperous: 繁荣的，兴旺的。
10. mutually exclusive: 互相排斥的。
11. folk: 民间的，民俗的。
12. I, for one: 我就是……中的一个（强调自己相信或会做某事等，并希望别人也如此）。
13. silk road: 丝绸之路（连接中国中部城市西安与地中海东部的古代商队路线，建立于欧洲的罗马统治时期，因从中国带丝绸至西方而得名）。
14. Prague: 布拉格（捷克共和国首都）；statuary: （总称）雕塑。
15. hesitate: 犹豫。
16. mu dan ting (The Peony Pavilion): 《牡丹亭》，明代剧作家汤显祖的代表作，也是中国戏曲史上浪漫主义的杰作。剧中歌颂了青年男女大胆追求自由爱情和坚决反对封建礼教的精神。
17. duplicate: 复制；landmark: 地标；ally: 同盟国；Opium War: 鸦片战争（1839—1842年中英间的战争）。
18. devastation: 毁灭。
19. substance: 实质，主旨。
20. authenticity: 真实性。
21. blockbuster:〈口〉轰动一时的书籍或电影； Kung Fu Panda:《功夫熊猫》，一部以中国功夫为主题的美国动作喜剧电影。故事讲述了一只笨拙的熊猫立志成为武林高手的故事。2008年5月，影片一上映就席卷全球。
22. landscape: 形势。
23. collectively: 共同地。
24. controversial: 有争议的。
25. stereotypical: 典型的；rebellious: 反叛的。
26. skin deep: 肤浅的。
27. revenue: 收益。
28. non-profit: 非营利的。
29. exemplar: 模范，典型。
30. pessimistic: 悲观主义的。
31. remote: 偏远的。
32. availability: 可获得性。
33. marvelous: 不可思议的，非凡的。
34. commercial: （电视或电台的）商业广告；vulgar: 庸俗的，粗俗的。
35. resentment: 怨恨。
M: Prof. Colin Mackerras, Griffith University, Australia
C: Shaun Chang, writer and cultural critic
Y: Following the recent decision by the authorities of CCP to foster the cultural development of the second biggest economy,1 media debates flare up as to whether we are going to have another cultural revolution or rather cultural industry which will boost our domestic consumption and add to the soft power of China.2 Here the core issues are perhaps whether Chinese can rediscover their traditional values and accept universal values during the current social transformation and integration with the rest of the world.3 What do you think of the current campaign to reconstruct4 Chinese culture?
M: Well, I don’t see why it shouldn’t be the case. We live in a globalized age, that’s true. American values and American culture seem to me more dominant5 than they ought to be. I mean I don’t think they are as good as they pretend to be. I don’t see why China shouldn’t try and recreate its traditional culture, and use its traditional culture, and enjoy its traditional culture. It will not be exactly the same, and it can never be exactly the same. But I don’t see any problems with revising and adapting from other inspirations.
Y: What do you think is the most interesting topic concerning the issue of cultural development and soft power?
C: In some other countries like the UK and Australia,
when you talk about cultural industry and cultural policy, you are talking more about creative industries driven by city-based policies rather than central government-driven policies. It is always culturally creative industries. But here we are emphasizing more on traditional Chinese culture and values. This seems to be a more mainstream6 way of thinking. As for creative industry, we are talking more about thinking outside the box, individualism7 and individual expression. I hope there can be a better balance between the two. That way we can bring more content and more interesting and diversified cultural products.
Y: In the opening ceremony of the 2000 Sydney Olympics, a little young girl was overwhelmed by huge human waves which were formed by aboriginal8 people. The Australian government was divided as to whether the aboriginal people should be brought into more prosperous9 region or they should be encouraged to remain where they are in order to preserve their unique culture. How do you see the relations between preservation of a traditional culture and the creation of a new one?
M: I don’t see them of being mutually exclusive10. I think creativity is very hard to create by itself. But I think money is very important. It matters as far as China is concerned and it matters as far as everywhere is concerned. Great cultures begin mostly in cities, but that doesn’t mean you can’t have folk11 cultures, too. I mean you should have folk cultures; they usually rise without being persuaded by authorities or anybody like that. But I think when you earlier talked about China’s soft power, it seems to me that the soft power to some extent depends on hard power. I mean it depends on money, on a strong country. I, for one12 think China should develop its soft power.
Y: In Henan province a statue of Song Qingling which costs 800 million yuan was just erected. In Tianjin local authorities claimed that they would spend 5.1 billion yuan constructing a British style cultural zone. In Xi’an local authorities decided to spend 3.5 billion yuan to build a modern “silk road13.” Huge amount of money is being used to construct or reconstruct culture, and probably with the hopes of attracting more tourists and make more money. So I can hardly see the distinction here between hard power and soft power. It seems that cultural platforms are constructed to make money?
C: Yes. What we talk about here is not cultural industry, but is actually cultural economy. These examples you gave focus on cultural products, or hardware, instead of software by which I mean thinking and concepts. So they build a lot of theme parks that are named after cultural figures. That doesn’t really mean culture is there being constructed.
M: I think it’s very difficult to distinguish between these two things, hard power and soft power. When we look back at European traditional culture, you can see all kinds of money being spent on great statues. Prague is a wonderful city that has got wonderful statuary there,14 and it is a beautiful culture. And that costs money. And you can see the same in China. Now I’m not saying that you should be spending all this money. But I would hesitate15 to say that this is a bad thing to do, and even as far as tourism is concerned. Now tourists have a bit of a bad name, they often don’t know very much. You know, I recently went to see mu dan ting(The Peony Pavilion)16 in the Imperial Gallery. It is a very beautiful production really. It costs a lot of money to go, but I thought it was very beautifully done, and it was a very good way to restore those interesting traditional dramas. And if they want to use that for tourists to make money, I would say good luck to them if they’ve got something that’s really worth selling.
Y: Is it worthwhile to duplicate landmark places like Yuanmingyuan Gardens that was destroyed during the invasion by the European allies during the Opium War?17
C: I think that will be the second devastation18 to the Yuanmingyuan Gardens. It was all part of the history. I have to say that it is preserved the way it is. Maybe you could give it a bit of more protection and attention, but I don’t see the point of rebuilding a new park. And just by copying something from Beijing, other cities cannot build a culture with substance19 and creativity.
M: Again I am not sure about this. I think tourists like authenticity20 so they would be able to say to their friends “I’ve seen the real thing.”
Y: What do you think of the role of international cooperation in cultural development? For example, we have panda and kung fu, but it was Hollywood that came up with a huge blockbuster Kung Fu Panda.21
M: I think what’s important for China is to make sure that it does have its own cultural identity. And of course that’s the whole question, how do you create your own cultural identity, how do you make China creative? I mean it’s a bit creative now, but it’s not as creative as it could be. And I think something should be done to make it more creative. I think that’s a very big question, because culture does matter. How people like the entertainment, how people like the kind of values that they had, I think those things do matter. I think it’s important that we not only live in a globalized world but we also live in a diverse world. I think diversity matters very much. I really think it’s a great pity that the West especially the US seems to dominate the globalization process so much. I mean I think China has plenty to offer.
Y: If you look at weibo, you’ll see the preferences of the public. How do you look at the popularity of such figures like 凤姐 or 芙蓉姐姐?
C: I believe that Internet has totally changed today’s media landscape22. Audiences have more power. They can also use Internet to express their power collectively23. So they do not appreciate what the state media are giving them. They are looking for something more interesting. And they believe that by making controversial24 figures like you have just mentioned top over official figures like model heroes they can show what they want right now.
Y: You mean the audiences are fed up with stereotypical cultural image so they are eager to create their own rebellious characters to tell their own story.25
M: Yes. But those stories may not have substance to support them and are only skin deep26. And we end up with all those meaningless cultural products.
Y: Do you think we should learn from Hollywood to use traditional cultural figures to generate revenue27?
M: I personally am not very keen to just follow the Hollywood models. I think Hollywood has made great achievements but culturally you have other better examples than Hollywood.
Y: Do you think we can draw a lesson from the cultural protectionism of the French government?
C: Yes. But I think they have more independent and public figures trying to preserve that. You can’t just depend on the government to do that. You need more non-profit28 organizations to do that. In a civil society you can have more diversified cultural products instead of having only mainstream products.
M: I agree with that. But I also think what’s important about the French exemplar29 is to have both preservation and innovation. I think the French model has got a lot of going for it. France is quite innovative and it has wonderful cultures to preserve, too. China has wonderful cultures to preserve, too. And I don’t feel that pessimistic30 about the future of Chinese culture.
C: Another thing I want to mention is the access to culture. Now a lot of the public museums are free so the poor people can go there. But do those people even have time to visit the museums? I think we should start doing something from elementary schools. For example, in Taipei, each semester elementary school pupils will be taken to museums, theatres or concerts. And Taiwan’s famous dancing company will go to remote31 villages to perform for free. So I think it is also important to guarantee cultural access of the general public.
M: To be fair, that also happens in (the) mainland(of ) China, since I’ve seen it happen. About the availability32 of access, I think that’s a very important point. The Peony Pavilion that I mentioned earlier is marvelous33 to see. But it is so expensive that the students cannot afford.
Y: The authorities have issued policies to limit commercials during TV plays and have also ruled against vulgar and violent entertainment programs on TV.34 This has caused a lot of debate. How do you look at it?
M: I think it’s the old question of the balance between freedom and responsibility. I think that is true, but how you apply is of course very, very difficult. I think I would prefer on the side of freedom if I were in a lot of cases. But there’re quite a few cases that I wouldn’t do that. I think the extent to which things are controlled is a very, very big problem. I think it’s OK for the government to say let’s not be so commercial and so material and take control of the kind of freedom that can cause resentment35. ?
1. CCP: = Chinese Communist Party， 中国共产党；foster: 促进，培养。
2. flare up: 突然爆发；consumption: 消费。
3. transformation: 转变；integration: 融合。
4. reconstruct: 重建。
5. dominant: 统治的，占优势的。
6. mainstream:（思想或行为的）主流。
7. individualism: 个人主义。
8. aboriginal: 澳大利亚土著（居民）的。
9. prosperous: 繁荣的，兴旺的。
10. mutually exclusive: 互相排斥的。
11. folk: 民间的，民俗的。
12. I, for one: 我就是……中的一个（强调自己相信或会做某事等，并希望别人也如此）。
13. silk road: 丝绸之路（连接中国中部城市西安与地中海东部的古代商队路线，建立于欧洲的罗马统治时期，因从中国带丝绸至西方而得名）。
14. Prague: 布拉格（捷克共和国首都）；statuary: （总称）雕塑。
15. hesitate: 犹豫。
16. mu dan ting (The Peony Pavilion): 《牡丹亭》，明代剧作家汤显祖的代表作，也是中国戏曲史上浪漫主义的杰作。剧中歌颂了青年男女大胆追求自由爱情和坚决反对封建礼教的精神。
17. duplicate: 复制；landmark: 地标；ally: 同盟国；Opium War: 鸦片战争（1839—1842年中英间的战争）。
18. devastation: 毁灭。
19. substance: 实质，主旨。
20. authenticity: 真实性。
21. blockbuster:〈口〉轰动一时的书籍或电影； Kung Fu Panda:《功夫熊猫》，一部以中国功夫为主题的美国动作喜剧电影。故事讲述了一只笨拙的熊猫立志成为武林高手的故事。2008年5月，影片一上映就席卷全球。
22. landscape: 形势。
23. collectively: 共同地。
24. controversial: 有争议的。
25. stereotypical: 典型的；rebellious: 反叛的。
26. skin deep: 肤浅的。
27. revenue: 收益。
28. non-profit: 非营利的。
29. exemplar: 模范，典型。
30. pessimistic: 悲观主义的。
31. remote: 偏远的。
32. availability: 可获得性。
33. marvelous: 不可思议的，非凡的。
34. commercial: （电视或电台的）商业广告；vulgar: 庸俗的，粗俗的。
35. resentment: 怨恨。